The X’s & O’s

Many retirees are wondering if bonds are still needed in a retirement portfolio because of how low the interest rates are. Brent, Matthew, and Joshua will discuss how bonds have been used in the past and compare it to the purpose that they serve in a retirement plan today.

Listen to the podcast episode…

The Hosts:

Brent Pasqua, Matthew Theal and Joshua Winterswyk


Brent Pasqua: This is the Retirement Plan Playbook. I’m Brent Pasqua here as always with Matthew Theal and Joshua WinterSwyk. This is episode 27 and today’s topic is do you need bonds in your retirement portfolio, which I think is a question that many people are now asking. But, before we get to our topic, let me ask you guys a couple of quick questions. Now that restaurants are starting to open up, have either of you decided it’s time to dine out, and then what has been your experience if you did?

Matthew Theal: You know, I did dine out. I went back to the old, trustworthy Chipotle and it was a really, really good experience. First of all, when you open the door, there’s a hand sanitizer. So you put your hand, right under there, you get sanitized, then they have markers. So you stay six feet apart from people while you wait in line, and then you pay for your order. And after you pay for your order and sign your check and everything there’s a hand sanitizer for you to sanitize one more time. And then I took my food and sat outside and ate it.

Brent Pasqua: And then what about behind the counter people serving? Obviously they’re probably all wearing masks, things like that.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. They’re all wearing masks. Except some guy was coughing in my food and I got really freaked out.

Brent Pasqua: Did he really?

Matthew Theal: No.

Joshua WinterSwyk: I’m just laughing at, things finally open up a little bit and you picked Chipotle as your meal.

Matthew Theal: Well, I’m not comfortable eating in a dine-in restaurant with a service staff yet. But Chipotle that fast casual, that’s my jam.

Brent Pasqua: Now you’re in LA County. Are they starting to open up a lot more restaurants out there?

Matthew Theal: They had a plan to, but right now they reversed the plan. Unfortunately, a lot of businesses are boarded up, so yeah there’s no food or no grocery stores, nothing’s really open out here.

Brent Pasqua: Josh, have you been able to dine out yet?

Joshua WinterSwyk: We haven’t dined out. No. The only thing we did do is we went to a coffee shop on Saturday. We did a bike ride and stopped at the coffee shop. What was surprising though, we’re in San Bernardino County, but no one was wearing mask. I think me and my wife were the only ones wearing masks walking into the coffee shop and we sat outside and just enjoyed the coffee. But that’s the closest we’ve gone to actually dining out. But I think that the biggest surprise was just the lack of masks from everyone, from the employees to the patrons.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. We haven’t dined out yet either. We’re just holding off. I mean, obviously with kids that brings up another challenge. We’re sitting outside, and we’re spaced out far enough, I think we’d be comfortable with it. But just with kids that were just holding off for just a little bit longer to see what happens as we get through more of the seasonal phase of this. One other question. Have either of you got your haircut yet?

Matthew Theal: I’m a no, I heard from my Barbara that LA County was about to allow them to open up, but unfortunately he had to empty his store and then board up as well. So no haircuts here.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah, me either. My barber’s on vacation right now and I haven’t got a haircut, so my hair is getting really long. I also haven’t shaved my face since this started. So I’ve had the longest facial hair I’ve ever had in my life. And I’m ready to cut that off too.

Brent Pasqua: I know it’s going to feel good once you guys get in there. I’ve actually got two haircuts, I did it very safely, outside, but it does feel good. And I’m sure it’s going to feel good for you guys. So let’s get into some of the hot take headlines. Spotify struck an exclusive a hundred million dollar multi-year deal with Joe Rogan. He’s was currently ranked number two on Apple’s podcasts. He had multiple sponsors. To me, it’s reminiscent of the Howard Stern XM deal. But how does this change podcasting and what does it mean for the future of podcasting?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It’s funny you brought up Howard Stern. It does remind me of that Howard Stern series deal. That’s funny and good for Joe man. His show’s been, I remember listening to his show in like 2010. It was pretty good.

Matthew Theal: I know a lot of people say he made probably at least a couple million dollars per show that you would do just based on his average. But again, paid, selling out, gets probably a lot of Spotify stock shares and options. Really good for him. As for the future of podcasts, that’s a great question. It looks like Spotify is trying to create a closed ecosystem and dominate the market. One thing that’s pretty cool with our podcast is since Spotify started putting a lot of effort into podcasts, our podcast has actually grown a lot and especially through Spotify. That’s pretty cool. So a lot of people think it’s bad, but in a way I think it’s good as Spotify becomes the place to go for podcasts, and they make it easy to discover podcasts like ours. And also final thoughts. Spotify, if you guys want to offer what a million, we would take a million, 2 million for exclusive rights.

Joshua WinterSwyk: We’re right here. Retirement Plan Playbook. We need 3 million. We all need to get a million and a half.

Matthew Theal: 3 million and we’ll take it in Spotify stock.

Joshua WinterSwyk: There we go. I’m good with that. I think they’re the largest paid subscriber for online music, right? I think they’ve surpassed Apple.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, they are.

Joshua WinterSwyk: I think it’s good. I think that they’re going to have a focus on podcasts and like you said, just going to be able to look and find podcasts easier. And it seems like they’re even offering, or going to be offering tools for the actual podcast, like people in production. And so I think it’s good for the medium. It’s just a positive deal and just a sign of changing times.

Brent Pasqua: Does this mean that his podcasts will only be exclusive to Spotify and you won’t be able to download it anywhere else, so people are going to have to subscribe to Spotify to listen to his show from now on?

Matthew Theal: Yes.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua WinterSwyk: I think that they’re going to have a free ad version and then a premium version, but it sounds like they’re ripping his podcast off of all of the other platforms and they have a date already specified that it’ll be exclusive.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. So if Spotify is listening please reach out to us. We’re willing to do a deal with you. A second hot take headline. One of the neatest things that we saw in a long time, probably throughout all 2020, Space X sent two astronauts to the international space station. It’s actually the first time we have sent astronauts into space from American soil since 2011. Did you guys catch that?

Matthew Theal: I missed the launch. Yeah. The day that they were going to do it originally, I remember because it was canceled. They canceled it for whether, I had the TV on and I was psyched, but I was heading out to my parent’s house for my dad’s birthday and I missed the launch. I was really bummed. I heard it was really cool though.

Joshua WinterSwyk: I missed it by just a few minutes. I missed seeing it leave the platform. I turned it on. I had just got home and saw them ascending. And one of the things that I just noticed is wow, did that cockpit of that rocket looks so much different from all of the other space launches. It looked like a video game or it looked like the future, and I was just really, really impressed with that.

Brent Pasqua: That is such a great point. It looked like a Tesla spacecraft.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah.

Brent Pasqua: Everything was touchscreen to watch the astronauts being launched into space and then be touched screening everything as they’re going out. It’s pretty incredible. I was able to watch with my kids. They were definitely just so in tuned to watching it and they had so many questions. It’s pretty cool. Just quickly though. A couple of things on, I don’t know how much you guys know about the International Space Station. I didn’t know very much at all. I’m very, just not, have never researched or looked into that much of it. Of course, I’ve heard of it, but the space station, it’s a size of a six bedroom house. It has six bedroom quarters, two bathrooms, a gym. And it has a room that has a 360 degree view of the entire space. It’s the size of a football field. And since 2000, it has been occupied with somebody on there continuously.

Brent Pasqua: That’s pretty neat though. We have, something’s flying around up there. It’s like a large satellite it looks like to me. It’s a spacecraft that orbits earth, that somebody is just constantly is monitoring is there doing all that stuff. And then it’s just incredible.

Matthew Theal: That’s pretty cool you researched that. I didn’t know what they’re doing. Did you learn like what they’re actually doing out there?

Brent Pasqua: So they continue to study whatever it is that they study about the universe. But I guess one other cool fact was the space station makes 16 orbits around earth, every 24 hours.

Matthew Theal: Oh wow.

Brent Pasqua: And it travels through sunrises and sunsets during that 24-hour span. So I know that there’re times too, when they go on the outside of the space station, and that’s why they have those space suits where they go out there and, if they need to repair something, they go out there and do that.

Brent Pasqua: But the reason they have a gym in there, is they have to work out two hours a day, so their body mass doesn’t break down. They don’t lose mass muscle from being in space.

Joshua WinterSwyk: That’s interesting.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah.

Matthew Theal: The pictures look really cool.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah.

Brent Pasqua: But I don’t know if you’ve heard the interview that they did. And one of the things that they said they were asked how it feels to be in space, looking down at earth with all the problems that we’re currently having. And one of the things that they said is like, “When you go out into space and you’re looking at earth, it’s one planet, it’s one shared atmosphere. And from space, there really are no boundaries. There’re no borders, it’s all you have.” And so, I think that’s such a neat point that with everything going on with two guys going into space like that, looking back down on it, like really, it’s one shared atmosphere, and we all have to live and work together just to preserve it.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah. It’s really nice to hear from them.

Matthew Theal: Yeah that’s beautiful.

Brent Pasqua: Let’s get to the retirement planning quarter. One of the lesser talked about impacts of the coronavirus is current fixed income yields. The Federal Reserve once again, slashed interest rates to 0% or to try and bring stability to the financial markets. As of today, the tenure US Treasury yields 0.66%. Interest rates are as close to negatives as they have ever been. Although Federal Reserve officials have doubt that they’ll actually go negative like Japan and parts of Europe, but many retirees are wondering if bonds are still needed in a retirement portfolio, which I think is such a fascinating question. Matt, are we really seeing the death of bonds at this point?

Matthew Theal: The short answer Brent is no, but we’re going to have to give our listeners some more facts behind this. So the first thing I think that bonds are good for and why we use them, especially in retirement portfolios is they reduce the volatility, right?

Matthew Theal: A bond or a bond position should go up or down less than stocks. So when we have those big sell offs like we did in February or March, your portfolio won’t drop as much. I think our most conservative portfolio during the sell off didn’t even drop 10%, because it had so much in bonds. And by using a little bit of stock, I mean, you could get four or 5% a year. So really bonds are great, they do reduce portfolio risk. I do understand that the concerns have a lot more talking points. Josh, what do you think?

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah. I think that with rates being still low, naturally, we want to strive for higher yields. Right? We want to go to assets that are getting us more return, but I think we just really have to analyze what the purpose of those bonds in the portfolio are. It’s like you said, they reduce volatility. They’re that stability in the portfolio. I know you guys use this analogy too. They’re like the defense in the portfolio. So although yields are low, I don’t think that bonds are dead at all, because they do serve a very specific purpose in the portfolio. So really making sure that purpose is needed first. And if so, then we just have to make sure they’re positioned properly.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. To give listeners an idea, let’s say for example, you had a 60, 40 portfolio, 60% stocks and 40% in bonds. The reason why we have bonds inside of the portfolios, volatility control. Because if you want it higher rate of return or just increase your stock positions, but if you put conservative bond positions in a portfolio, it helps with your downside risk. So like Matt was saying the S&P or the Dow dropped 30% this year, portfolios didn’t actually drop 30%, because they had those bond positions. But one of the problems that we’re starting to see is these bond returns are actually going to be so low right now that the questions is really do we continue to invest in them? Does the investor really want to continue, are they’re attractive? And if they aren’t, where else would you go, and how much are they really needed? You know, what are your thoughts, Matt, on continuing to invest in bonds? And where do you think that’s going in the future?

Matthew Theal: Yeah. I think you have to because like we said, I mean they reduce portfolio volatility. One thing that’s interesting. A big mistake I think that people are you using bonds for still, or they might not be quick to change is they think bonds are there to create income. I’m going to invest in a bond and I’m going to get 5%, 6%, 8% a year, guaranteed. Those days are gone, bonds should be used right now in retirees portfolios just to reduce the volatility. By volatility we mean your portfolio won’t drop as much when the market drops. So I got an example. Let’s take a look at the 30 year US Treasury bond. 20 years ago, this was the staple of our retirement portfolio.

Matthew Theal: Say you have a million dollars, you’d buy one 30 year Treasury bond with that million, it would yield four or 5%. You’d get your 40, 50,000 a year guaranteed income, that social security, your retirement’s done. You don’t have to worry. And then you pass away or the bond comes up, you get your million dollars back. Great strategy. Now that 30 year bond only gets you about 14,000 a year in income. It doesn’t even cover social security. So the only reason for bonds right now is to really reduce the volatility of your portfolio and get a little bit of yield. I mean, they’re yielding two, 3%.

Brent Pasqua: When do we think yields will go back up? I mean, it’s been such an interesting environment since 2008, because you had them a little bit higher in 2008, they came back down, they crept back up a little bit and we’re just getting to a point over the last year, year and a half where we saw savings rates and CD rates finally get a little bit higher to something that’s somewhat decent, and now we’re back down to this point again.

Matthew Theal: I have some thoughts, but I’d be curious to hear Josh’s first.

Joshua WinterSwyk: I don’t think just especially with what’s going on today, that interest rates are going to be skyrocketing anytime soon. I just think that there’s just still so much uncertainty we’re seeing the fed using so many of their tools in their tool bag to help reduce the impact of COVID and everything else. So I just don’t think that we’re going to see rates right away rise. There’s just not a lot of good explanation for that. But like Matt said, I mean, the bonds are serving just that purpose.

Joshua WinterSwyk: It’s not for income anymore. It is for that stability in that portfolio, and we’ve been dealing with lower yields from bonds for a while now. So it’s not something that’s extremely different or something that we’re totally not used to. We haven’t seen bond yields like you had mentioned very high in a very long time. And really since I’ve been an investor they’ve never really been higher than 6%. So that’s again, just looking under the hood and making sure that if you are investing in bonds, they’re serving the right purpose.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I agree. And then on the other thing the biggest risk that the people who are just buying bonds hold today is I’d be a little bit nervous about inflation. If inflation is 2% and your bond yields one, then you’re actually losing 1% a year. That’s called real return. And your investments just aren’t keeping up with the cost of living. So again, we have to try some different unique portfolio strategies to get around that. One option is we could use inflation linked bonds, and I think that’s going to become really popular for retirees to hedge out that inflation risk.

Joshua WinterSwyk: And normally what makes bonds more risky is the change of interest rates. But I think that inflation is actually a more … That makes bonds more risky than even interest rate changes right now, just because bond yields are so low.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I think it’s critical. I mean, regardless of where rates are at, bonds are always going to play a pretty significant role in the portfolio, even if it’s just to stabilize and control volatility. I mean, at the end of the day, you need those, but if you start looking outside and said, “Okay, well, I’m not comfortable with where bond rates are at,” where else are you going to go? What are your other options for safety?

Joshua WinterSwyk: It’s a great question.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. So there’s a few other options really, when you go to invest. The first is stocks. Like you could go all stocks, you could go pretty aggressive. I think that’s how the three of us are set up, one because of age. But two, I think we just have a little bit better understanding of how the stock market works compared to the average person who is not really following it every day. Some people might be pitching the blue chip dividends, the dividend yielders right now, right. You’re Johnson and Johnson. It’d be a couple of oil companies. You get three, four or 5% that way from dividend yields. The other option is just cash to build savings accounts.

Joshua WinterSwyk: CDs.

Matthew Theal: CDs yep. And then finally the one that I know, Brent, you’re going to be passionate about is annuities, right?

Joshua WinterSwyk: I was waiting for you to say that.

Brent Pasqua: Well let me tell you, bonds are correlated, and interest rates are correlated with annuities, interest rates do impact the indexes and the fixed rate returns inside of an annuity. And the last thing somebody probably wants to do right now is lock up their money into a commission based annuity for a 10 year term where their rates are just so low right now, they’re not going to go much higher, because they can’t insurance rate. Insurance companies lock in these rates. You have a contract, they can change the rates around. They generally do not go higher. They’re just going to most likely lower them to get locked up in your money, with your money to a 10 year annuity right now, probably a very big mistake.

Brent Pasqua: I do not like any commission-based annuities, there’s no point in having them. If you wanted to look at annuities because you felt more comfortable in something like that then yes there’s fee only annuities out there that don’t have commissions, but still at this point right now with where rates are at, even to lock it up for a short term five years where rates are at. I still don’t see it as a viable option. I think you continue to go with some of these other options and a balanced portfolio.

Matthew Theal: I’d rather go with government bonds because one thing that no one talks about the annuities is you are taking that corporation risk, if the insurer does fail it, depending on the size of your annuity, you might not get all your money back. Right. I keep my faith in the US government, US government bonds over annuities, for sure.

Joshua WinterSwyk: And that makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you’re the goal is capital preservation, why are you taking corporation risk? You might as well take even less risk and go with something more secure, like a government bond.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, absolutely.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. There’s a much more calculated way to do it than put your money into some of these other options are locking up into annuity, giving your money to the insurance company. They’re really not going to give you a majority of that money back for many, many, many years. And you’re locked in at a low rate. Let me tell you from just experience and seeing it over the years, when you lock in environments that we’re in right now, your rate of return of your annuity is most likely not going to be very good at all. And the only one that’s going to make a lot of money off it is the person selling it. So I would stay away, especially in these environments. I haven’t seen a good environment for annuities in awhile. I would stay away from commission-based annuities, absolutely. I don’t think they’re an option.

Matthew Theal: I agree. Quickly can I talk about some of the risks I see, or the mistakes I see people make on the bond side of their portfolio?

Brent Pasqua: Yeah.

Matthew Theal: It could be really helpful for listeners. So the biggest mistake, I think we all see people make on the fixed income side when they do go to select their bonds for retirement is they end up taking too much risk with their bond funds. So they take equity like risk with bonds. Meaning they think, “Oh, I need to get four or 5%. I’m going to pick this bond that yields that.”

Matthew Theal: Well, the only reason that bond funds yielding four or 5% is because the bonds it’s holding are extremely risky. And when the market crashes like it did it February, March and we get a recession, those bond funds go down a lot. So I pulled up two that are really, really popular with retirees, the JNK bond fund, J-N-K and the high yield bond fund, H-Y-G. They’re two of the most popular high yielding bond funds out there. How much do you think that fell in March? Any guesses? To give you an idea of the bond fund we use in our portfolio, our core bond fund only fell 8%.

Joshua WinterSwyk: I imagine a lot.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I would say north of 20 probably, or in that range.

Matthew Theal: To almost 24% for each of them. So that’s almost as much as the stock market, but you’re only getting bond-like returns. So that’s the biggest mistake I see retirees make on our side, on our portfolio, our investment philosophy is absolutely zero risk with our bonds, and this is why. I mean, it makes such a huge difference on your returns in a recession or a bear market.

Brent Pasqua: Because when you’re saying JNK bonds, basically what you’re saying is that bonds are loans to corporations. You’re lending money to corporations who can become insolvent or default or go into bankruptcy. So you’re lending to risky companies, which is why they have a JNK rating. And because of that when we’re in an environment like we are right now, it acts like a stock. It starts to collapse very quickly.

Matthew Theal: Exactly.

Joshua WinterSwyk: You see the outflows. I mean, people at that point, see their bond fund decreasing at 10, 15%. What are they going to do? The same thing they’re doing come their socks. It’s flight to safety. I’m getting out there’s excess cap flows out of that fund. I bet that’s shocking for a lot of people to hear about that downside or draw down from a bond fund.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. It’s just something that I’ve never really understood from an investor’s perspective is if you’re going to buy JNK bonds, why don’t you just buy good stocks or buy small cap stocks?

Joshua WinterSwyk: I have one guess, they’re sold.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, right. Yeah. It’s a cost to purchase it.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah. And someone’s selling right. I mean, it is a product. I think it goes back to my previous point is make sure you know what the purpose of that investment is in your portfolio.

Matthew Theal: Well said Joshua.

Brent Pasqua: So it’s safe to say that. I mean, obviously there’re thousands and thousands and thousands of bonds out there, bonds aren’t going away. They’re still going to play an important role, but the interest rates are low. It seems like right now is a great time to buy a house, though.

Matthew Theal: It is, but the prices are going up as inventory is so low. A lot of people are trying to buy homes right now.

Brent Pasqua: And is it of rates? Is that what their finding most attractive?

Matthew Theal: I don’t know. It might be a factor of everything, right?

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah. There’re multiple factors. You’re seeing people flee from the cities into the suburbs. Now it’s finally a time that people have not been spending as much or getting tired of their own home. There’s just so many different variables, but the interest rates are great if you’re purchasing a home, just no one’s selling homes. I think I saw new home sales listings were down like 80% in the US. So although they do have tons of buyers, we don’t have as many people selling their homes. So inventory’s tight.

Brent Pasqua: Absolutely. So keep your good bonds in your balance portfolio, more than likely. It’s an interesting environment. Let’s head into the final thing, RPA recommends. Matthew, I’ll let you go first. What do you have for us today?

Matthew Theal: So I want to talk about the forgotten art of reading today. I think most people have probably been passing their time. If you’re younger, you’re probably playing video games or using that TikTok. Maybe if you’re a little bit older you’re on Facebook or watching Netflix or HBO. And then if you’re much older than that, you might be watching a lot of CNN or Fox News or MSNBC watch, a lot of TV, right? So as most of us are still distancing, I’m going to go ahead and recommend the Amazon Kindle as a good way to read a book. I used to be a big like paper book guy, but the Kindle, it’s actually really nice. It’s light, it’s easy to read at night when you’re in bed and you have the lights off. You can take notes with it, which is really cool. Yeah. I think it’s a nice affordable device for people to do something other than watch TV or play video games or go on social media.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, totally agree. What about you, Josh?

Joshua WinterSwyk: I know everyone’s buying bikes, but I bought my wife a bike. I was pretty impressed. The company was called Retrospec and it came in this big box and pretty easy. I’m not too handy, and I was able to put 99% of it together by myself. I had a call in a lifeline just to make sure it was all good. But it came in this box, got delivered to the doorstep, put it’s together, and she loves it. And so that’s our new hobby that we just started was riding bikes. And I was impressed with the company retrospect and getting a bike shipped here and easily put together. So focusing on the outdoor activities to try to make sure I don’t gain too much weight through all this quarantine.

Brent Pasqua: So are you selling yourself on why you’re going to buy yourself a bike now?

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah. You know me. I wait until I find a good deal when I’m buying stuff for myself or I have to really analyze any purchase that I make for myself, but she knew the bikes you wanted, and it came back in stock. Because I know that they’re really hard to find in a lot of bike shops. Even around here, don’t have a lot of inventory. It finally came available, she ordered it, and eventually I will look to buy myself a new bike. Hopefully if that day comes I’ll bring it up on recommends again.

Brent Pasqua: This makes sense. At first, I thought he said, I bought my wife a bike and I was like, “Wow, that’s really fast for Josh to make a purchase.” But then he clarified towards the end, and said, “No Brooke bought herself the bike. I still haven’t bought myself one yet.”

Joshua WinterSwyk: No, no, I got it for her. It was her gift. She actually graduated with her BSN, her bachelor’s in nursing, and so that was me. I got to get some credits there. I did the research, I bought it. She just knew she wanted it. The decision was made fast. She forced my hand, she was like, “This is what I want,” and I had to pull the trigger. So if it was up to me, we would have waited for another discount code.

Brent Pasqua: So she graduated last year then, huh?

Joshua WinterSwyk: That’s funny. No it was June. It was quick. I did a good job, but again it was because it was her, and it wasn’t for me. I’ll probably get my bike next year this time.

Brent Pasqua: I have an RPA recommend, but I got to go full disclosure first, because I own stock in it. I’m going to go with Celsius.

Matthew Theal: I think we all do, right. Just sorry to cut you off. Yeah.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Yeah we do.

Brent Pasqua: It’s a company that makes healthier versions of energy drinks. It’s not sugar based energy, it’s more natural vitamins. And it has about 200 milligrams of caffeine, so in the middle of the day if you’re hitting that low point, or you’re ready to go work out, it’s a good way to give you that really that big pick me up. I wouldn’t recommend drinking at night. For some people I think it gives them a little bit of the jitters, for the first time they drank it, but it’s just another way to get some caffeine, if coffee is hard on your stomach or if you need an extra midday pickup. Love it. Stock has been doing very well also through quarantine. I don’t know what’s going on with them. I don’t know if they just… because they release new flavors and new types or what, but they’re just doing outstanding and it’s a good energy being, so I do recommend it. Most should stay away from probably sugar based energy drinks. I don’t think that’s healthy for anybody.

Joshua WinterSwyk: Do you have a favorite flavor to recommend?

Brent Pasqua: I do. So I got two, I got the Kiwi and then also I get the packets, which are like the lemon and it’s a mixture of flavor, like a Berry flavor, which are really good. My wife likes the orange and watermelon. So the guava is really good. So those are the different ones that we really like. And I’ve tried a lot of them and they just released peach recently. So it’s actually a really neat company. So you might want to check them out.

Matthew Theal: Monster replacement, right?

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nobody needs to drink Monsters or Red Bulls since it’s really bad for your heart. So thank you all for listening to the Retirement Plan Playbook. If you’d like to learn more about us or read the show notes, please go to the Retirement Plan Playbook. We thank you for listening. Thank you guys.

Matthew Theal: Thank you. Bye.

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