The X’s & O’s

There is no doubt that we have witnessed many shifts and changes since we entered this current health crisis, but will we still feel these effects even after the virus is eradicated? Brent, Matthew, and Joshua share their thoughts on some of the long-term impacts that COVID-19 may have not only in the financial realm, but in our everyday lives as well.

Listen to the podcast episode…

The Hosts:

Brent Pasqua, Matthew Theal and Joshua Winterswyk


Brent Pasqua: Welcome to Retirement Plan Playbook. I’m your host, Brent Pasqua. joining as always, is Matthew Theal and Joshua Winterswyk. This is episode 24, and today’s show topic, the long-term impact of COVID-19. Today, we’re really going to talk about how the impact of COVID-19 will have on life going forward, and what we think some of those short term and long term impacts really are going to be. Just to start though guys, how’s it going living at home?

Matthew Theal: It’s going pretty good for me. I’m a little bored, gaining weight. I have a very small apartment. I don’t own a house and I’m kind of going stir crazy, been going outside, going on lots of long walks. Definitely ready for some more space though, that’s for sure.

Brent Pasqua: Do you get out very much? I mean, do you just go outside, take a break? Are you going to the stores very much, or how are you handling that?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, it’s pretty hard to get in stores in LA. There’s usually lines. So, I was trying to stay away from lines, because I’m trying to stay away from people right now. But yeah, been getting a lot of fresh air. They say fresh air is good for killing the virus.

Brent Pasqua: How’s it going for you Josh?

Joshua Winterswyk: Okay. I’m kind of with Matt. My space is not that big. So, getting out with my wife and dogs on long walks is keeping us sane. Getting some fresh air, as well. The dogs love it, continue to love it, us being home, but making it through it and just finding new things to read, watch, do to keep us from losing it.

Brent Pasqua: Have either of you guys started in home workouts? Do you guys find those effective or motivating at all?

Matthew Theal: I find them extremely unmotivating, and I’ve done two. That’s why I’m gaining weight. Plus, I’m eating lots of sweets and breads. Old Matt’s coming back.

Brent Pasqua: Oh, so you took the restrictions off when you’re not in the office, putting all the restrictions on us.

Matthew Theal: Exactly.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I find it pretty difficult to do. I mean, I’m working out at home, but it’s not like being in a class or having a full workout. It’s just not the same, but you have to get it in, I guess, whether it’s on long walks or you just got to get the exercise in. Are you guys missing sports? I mean, it’s been what? Over a month now, and there’s still no sports on. I mean, do you guys miss it at all or do you find yourself missing it all?

Joshua Winterswyk: Absolutely. I am. I mean, we have a love for even viewing sports live. I think we all share that, and not being able to watch any sports, not being able to physically go watch a game. It’s just been part of normal life for so long and a hobby and really enjoyed it. It’s definitely missed.

Brent Pasqua: I have to imagine ESPN is just hurting so much, because there’s no reason to even turn on that channel right now.

Joshua Winterswyk: Besides the Michael Jordan documentary.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. Besides that, I don’t think there’s much else to have on that channel on for any reason.

Matthew Theal: I saw that they asked their anchors to take pretty big pay cuts.

Brent Pasqua: Makes sense. I mean, viewership is probably way down. I mean, where would we be right now without Netflix?

Joshua Winterswyk: Renting more movies, I guess, on demand or watching it through different services. I think Netflix is a saving grace. It’s a one stop shop for whatever you’re looking for. What do you think, Matt?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I think we’d all be in trouble without Netflix and the internet. Maybe people would pick up books. I don’t know. I think that’s what they used to do back in the day before TV, radio, and all that other stuff.

Brent Pasqua: I find it really hard to even watch cable TV, or I don’t even really turn on DirecTV nearly as much. I mean, since this has all started. If I’m going to sit down and watch something, it’s more or less going to probably be Netflix. It’s not going to be something on DirecTV or cable TV.

Joshua Winterswyk: I’m coming to that conclusion too, especially with no sports on. I mean, that’s mostly what I use the DirecTV service for.

Brent Pasqua: Are you guys eating out much?

Matthew Theal: I am.

Brent Pasqua: Do you pick up food? Do you trust it?

Matthew Theal: Yeah. I try and do it at least once a week, but I don’t go to any large chains. I only go to small businesses. You got to support and help those people at times like this.

Brent Pasqua: Right.

Joshua Winterswyk: That’s what I’m doing too. It’s usually once or twice a week, and try to pick something local or somewhere that we normally would go to, that’s one of the local shops or restaurants to support the community.

Brent Pasqua: Talking about the stock market. I was trying to think back. Do you guys remember what your first stock trade actually was, when you first placed your first trade?

Matthew Theal: I do.

Brent Pasqua: What did you buy? What did you buy first?

Matthew Theal: Nortel Networks in 2003.

Brent Pasqua: What made you buy it?

Matthew Theal: They were talking about it on CNBC.

Brent Pasqua: The old school Cramer back in the day pick. I don’t think he’s

Matthew Theal: Yeah, no, he was. He was on different show with Larry Cudlow. Cudlow and Cramer, it was called. Yeah.

Brent Pasqua: Do you remember yours, Josh?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. It was Chipotle. I think I told this story on a podcast before.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I think we did tell this story.

Joshua Winterswyk: I did a project on it. I was in college, skyrocketed up after that, and then bought it once it was already high. Was not a beginner’s luck whatsoever.

Matthew Theal: Yeah.

Brent Pasqua: I feel like a lot of young people right now are placing their first trades as people think it’s a good opportunity to start buying stocks right now. I think there’s a lot of newcomers going on to Robinhood and other apps, that are trying to place these beginner trades, getting a feel for the market. Probably losing money right now, but it’s a good time for people to get some experience in, I guess. So, starting with the topic, with COVID-19, do you think this is going to be a societal shift, like after what happened on 9/11? I mean, after 9/11, obviously we went into a long war, developed new technologies. I mean, that war was really fought with drones. We did less on the ground. I mean, we were on the ground obviously there, but less plane flying over, less Navy, a little bit more drones. A lot of people were killed from satellites.

Brent Pasqua: Do you see us making those shifts where we’re seeing everybody’s out in public wearing masks and gloves, at least, I think, until the vaccine comes, but could that be long-term? Do you think the national health reserve stocks up finally, or we get some temperature checks everywhere we go? I mean, if you go to the airport, you’d get your temperature checked. You go to a restaurant, you get temperature checked. If you walk into a local business, you’re getting a temperature check. Do you think there’s going to be some major shifts now?

Matthew Theal: I think so. Certainly. I mean, basically this virus has exposed how weak America is actually fighting the virus. So, if you’re a terrorist organization, all you have to do is release a bio weapon like this in our country that spreads, and man, you’re going to put us in a world of pain. So, we have to start diverting more resources to healthcare.

Brent Pasqua: What are your thoughts, Josh?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. I think that with any crisis, they’re vectors for change, so there’s going to be a lot of changes. I think it’s just speculating how big and how many industries or how many people are going to be affected. But I agree with Matt. I think that one of the biggest changes is going to be with healthcare. What a huge hole to fill for the future of that gap between are we prepared and are we not needs to close, and hopefully, we can get it done, because of this crisis.

Brent Pasqua: I feel like this has made me even more of a germaphobe. I was already a germaphobe in a lot of ways, but I feel like this is making me even worse. I’m thinking about why when it’s flu season, why wouldn’t I be wanting to wear gloves and mask all the time? If I don’t want to get the flu, why don’t I just wear gloves and mask all the time? Do you think that’s going to become more common sight like you see in Asia? I mean, a lot of those people, it’s kind of regular for them to wear masks and gloves.

Matthew Theal: I think so. Absolutely. I mean, we’ll at least be wearing masks and gloves until there’s most likely a vaccine, unless you’ve had it.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, and one of the things. When you have young kids and if you’re going to get sick, chances are you’re not getting it from the grocery store though. That’s the only thing. I mean, they come home sick from school. They pick up things. There’s tons of germs in school. They’re coughing and hugging and breathing all over you. It’s pretty impossible to avoid. I mean, you’re going to get… Unless you have a super strong immune system, I mean, you’re probably going to get it. But I mean, if the schools did something, I think obviously there could be a lot of prevention done there, also.

Joshua Winterswyk: But I know that this is completely different than something we’ve ever experienced. But some wild colds and flus are good to build immunities, as well. I mean, we need them as humans to fight it off and build immunity. You can’t go your whole life not coming in contact with any germs, or you wouldn’t be able to fight off any germs. So, it’s a hard balance, I guess, is just my point of… Not with COVID. Take your proper precautions but just on a regular daily basis going forward, how is too much? And how much is good enough, is I guess the question we have to answer.

Brent Pasqua: Because you see all these people protesting and a lot of those people aren’t even wearing mask, and they’re not worried. So, that set and group of people is probably going to expand it to more, because I know there’s going to be those who are worried and those are not. We’re already seeing that there’s sort of a division already being created.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah.

Brent Pasqua: So, I guess, then, what is your opinion on the impact of COVID in the working environment? If you look at blue collar jobs versus white collar jobs or essential businesses versus nonessential businesses, what do you think some of the differences we’re going to see in that workplace environment?

Matthew Theal: That’s a good question, Brent. I think you actually brought up a good point with the blue collar workers versus white collar. In my opinion, that’s the way we used to look at jobs in this country, but going forward, I think, and I read this in a paper, that we’re going to probably switch to looking at it in a cloud versus land way, or like you said, essential versus nonessential. So, as financial planners, the three of us are cloud employees, right? We don’t really need to be in our office to do our job. You do it from anywhere. But there are certain employees who actually need to be in the physical space on land, delivery people, restaurant workers, grocery store workers, nurses, doctors that they need physical space to do their job. So, it’s going to create a really interesting class system. And a lot of people are starting to predict that this could really end up hurting office space, so commercial real estate over the next year of 10 to 15 years might not do so well.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, it makes you wonder for business owners, do I need all that space? And really forcing everyone to see if their business is really cloud or can we work remotely? And it seems like a lot of businesses, from what I’ve seen, have found success with the internet and all of the services that come with it, of managing the business going forward. So, that’s a really good comparison to the blue collar white collar now to the cloud and land. Just going to be interesting to see how many cloud-based businesses go back to being land after this is done.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, I mean, if you think about your tax person or just any appointments that you would regularly go to in person. I mean, those companies have the capabilities to do them virtually. You don’t have to drive. You don’t have to go sit down. You don’t have to wait, and then do the appointment, and then drive back. You cut your time by 60%, 70%. Would you rather be doing that then driving to those appointments and doing them in person?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, you’re definitely more efficient when you’re working via the cloud or just doing everything virtually. And in a way, because no one’s driving, like you said, it’s good for air pollutions.

Brent Pasqua: I just can’t imagine. If I have an appointment that I could see that person… For example, I need to go get my taxes done, and the tax person wants to have some question. I know a lot of people do it by mail, but they don’t need to be an in person appointment. But let’s say you have an in person appointment. Just say, “Hey, just do it virtually.” I mean, won’t most people want that? And especially with California traffic and traffic all over. Won’t you just want to do it virtually, get it over with, be in your home, and not have to drive it?

Matthew Theal: Makes a lot of sense.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think it also just the depends on the person. Some people like that personal interaction. But what is forcing… I mean, what COVID-19 is forcing people to do is to adapt to the virtual. Right? You’re forced to do it. So, really answering the question of do you really need that interaction that you thought you liked? But I know even just me personally, for some things or some services that I do, I like to meet face to face. There’s something that’s still valuable with that, but I’m definitely going to think twice now more, is if that’s really worth it going forward. It’s now forced me to take a second look at that decision.

Brent Pasqua: I think this whole situation is an introvert’s dream.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, totally.

Brent Pasqua: What do you think is going to happen with housing? You think things are going to get start to get spaced out? I mean, do you think city life becomes less desirable? People want to move their families to suburbs, not be on top of each other, not have so much central or use central locations?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, if the trend is more people are going to start working remotely, then there’s really no reason to live inside of a city, because most people pick cities, right, because it’s close to where their job is. That’s where the company’s headquarters is, so they could attract the top talent in their industries, but there’s already tons of articles about people leaving New York City, because of how bad COVID was there, and how the reason COVID spread was because essentially New York was built on top of each other with very, very high urban density. But going even further, I think we’re going to see a lot of people migrate to the warmer states. This study is in pretty much shown that the weather up in Washington, Seattle, San Francisco, or even how it’s been here in LA for the past month, 60 degrees or less is really good for the virus spread. Whereas some of those warmer states that we’re seeing open back up, the virus isn’t spreading as fast.

Brent Pasqua: I have to imagine that a lot of people like the city environment, the city life. It is a fun paced environment to live in. So, I have to imagine, obviously, that still becomes still very desirable, but I think now there’s this whole other reason to move outside of it. I mean, what’s your thoughts, Josh?

Joshua Winterswyk: I think there’s just another variable. I mean, a lot of the other reasons that I go into the city is for entertainment. So, if it’s for a concert, if it’s for a show, if it’s for sports, dining, so if this stays around or comes back, let’s say, in the fall even worse, or we have another COVID that’s going to make me again think twice about going into the city, right? It’s just the risk is greater and the benefit’s just not there. So, I think that variable of that just kind of depends on how long this sticks around, and if this is going to be more normal than it’s not.

Brent Pasqua: Now, the next question I have is, really, and that leads into the next one on live events. I mean, with sports being paused and then having these massive stadiums which are just obviously, you’re exposed to everywhere. Concerts are the same way. Festivals, outdoor markets, places where they’re high density and lots of people. Do you think this changes that environment also long-term?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I definitely think so. I think that live events, sports, concerts, those music festivals, conferences, those are going to be the last things to reopen. They’re just too high risk, and who really wants to go inside of a NFL stadium packed with the 100,000 people right now? It’s just not smart, and there’s no way for them to control really who’s going in. Right? Like temperature checks, yeah, that sounds great. But is it really realistic? Probably not.

Brent Pasqua: I mean, you already line up at the gate and wait to get in for a long time. I can’t imagine what that would be like trying to temperature check everybody. Just getting through security is a pain.

Joshua Winterswyk: But I think about that open air stadium … I mean, people are still going to have that love for sports and still want to do that, so eventually. Now, we’re already seeing a lot of the sports leagues delay this for months already. But I think that open air stadiums will just become even more popular. Do you want them to be in an arena, or would you rather be in an open air stadium when it’s 90 degrees outside? When we talked about the heat and just open air. So, definitely, though, I agree with you. It is going to have a major effect. I think it’s just going to cause a lot of change.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, it’s interesting, because everything’s changing so fast right now. Every day we’re learning something new, and then you start to wonder, are these going to be long-term impacts? Are they all just going to be really short term impacts? Because some of this, once you have the vaccine, I mean, somebody would be like, “We want to go back to a normal life, pack of 50,000 stadium indoors. Who cares? We’re not really worried about it,” until something else happens again. And then, there’s others that are like, “You know what? It’s too many people packed into a tight place.”

Joshua Winterswyk: What’s short term to you, Brent?

Brent Pasqua: Short term would be until there’s a vaccine, so 18 months, 12 months from now. They can get it out quick enough, but that’s a long time.

Joshua Winterswyk: That was what my thought. That’s a long time. That’s not just this short amount of time, 18 months. Let’s call it two years.

Matthew Theal: Right. Yep.

Brent Pasqua: What about another interesting one? And that’s travel. Cruise ships have been hit so hard. Amazingly, I think there’s still some cruise ships out there that are still traveling, which is just mind boggling. But hotels have been hit. Airlines, obviously. Airbnbs, those are in trouble. What do you think happens with travel now?

Matthew Theal: I think it’ll bounce back. People still are going to want to travel. They’re going to want to get out of their homes. They’re going to want to take vacations. It might take a little bit longer for travel to bounce back. Let me give you an example. We all live in Los Angeles, or a suburb of Los Angeles. You can take a pretty nice trip going up the coast to Santa Barbara, right? If you want to get some different beach time, or going down to San Diego. So, maybe that’s the trend for awhile, but eventually, people will start going back, go to Hawaii, go to the Bahamas, travel in New York City, travel to Paris. But as for cruise ships, I mean, I will never probably ever get on one of those again in my life. I don’t see the upside, but I know people like them a lot, and I know why they like them. They’re very, very popular with the older retired set who likes to travel. They’re easier.

Joshua Winterswyk: It provides a lot of convenience, but I’m with you on the cruise lines. Can they even survive this, or how many of them are going to survive? We’re talking about a two year timeframe or 18 months, but just listening to your comments, Matt, does that allow Airbnb to bounce back fairly quickly? You can sanitize an Airbnb. You’re not around a ton of other people, let’s say, even like a hotel room, and take a trip where you can drive a couple hours and spend there. And does that help Airbnb going forward to kind of capture the people who still want to travel, but don’t want to get on a cruise ship or an airplane?

Matthew Theal: I think that if Airbnb owned their properties, they’d probably be able to make it up. But the fact that they don’t own their properties, man, they’re in serious trouble, because it’s a third party, right? Who owns the property, and we don’t know how leveraged they are. So, we could see a lot of those Airbnb homes starting to hit the market for sale as the owners run out of money.

Brent Pasqua: I wonder also how people who are just retiring are starting to think of their travel goals, because one of the questions that always comes up when we do retirement planning is what do you want to do travel wise? Where these destinations that you really want to go? And is that going to become more localized? Is that travel, those travel destinations really going to change? People’s thought towards them going to change, I mean. Is it just too risky to be traveling? I know in the short term, that obviously the answer’s yes, but long term, do you think it really impacts retirement goals with travel?

Matthew Theal: Just depends how adventurous they are, right? Some people once it’s probably safe and like you say, there’s a vaccine, they’ll definitely go on those dream trips. But for others, they just might be like, “Hey, I’m happy with local trips.”

Joshua Winterswyk: Well, I think that just because it’s still going to be fresh in your mind, this isn’t going away. Your memory is going to potentially hold you back from traveling to certain parts of the area maybe that were just even hit harder like Italy. And not to take anything away from them, but that was an area that was hit extremely hard. So, that thought’s going to cross your mind. I know it would mine, if I was planning a trip. So, I think, yeah,

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, it’s going to be hard for hotels, airlines, them to make out of this, because any of these, just like in live events and sports and concerts, not very many people are going to want to go to these high density areas and get packed in with hundreds of other people. I mean, it’s not safe to be in, and this isn’t going to go away anytime soon. What do you guys think happens with the global economy? Stock market, global trade, manufacturing going forward, what do you think is going to happen here?

Matthew Theal: For the economy, a lot of people are very optimistic. They think this is going to bounce right back. We’ve kind of gone through this show, and it’s basically like, well… I think to summarize it. We’ll see what happens when there’s a vaccine, right? The economy is probably going to take a while to get back to where it was. Remember, for every person who isn’t afraid of COVID, there’s probably 10 people who are afraid. And they don’t want to go outside, and they’re not going to go back to restaurants. And instead of going to the store to get their food, they’re going to order it online. And we’re making all these big shifts, so it’ll take some time for the economy to work this out. As for the stock market, it’s way too hard to make a prediction on what stock prices will do. You’re going to end up looking like a fool. But I wouldn’t be truly shocked, because I know people want predictions, if we get a time like the 2000s, where 2000, 2001, 2002 kind of didn’t go anywhere.

Brent Pasqua: I mean, you’re not going to take a stab at the projections of the recovery, because we have this recorded. So, I mean, we can always go back to it and play it when you’re wrong.

Joshua Winterswyk: But Matt, do you think that even where stock prices are at today? What’s your thought? We’ve had a really good bounce back from our lows. I mean, are you surprised? It’s not a prediction, but do you think it’s accurate to your long-term economic view?

Matthew Theal: I’m not surprised we went back up, right? Because stocks are always overshoot on the downside and overshoot on the upside. But over the long run, I wouldn’t be shocked if two years from now, we’re talking stocks are in the same spot. They just haven’t gone anywhere. They’ve gone up and down a lot as this virus kind of works its way through the economy and we see the long run impact.

Brent Pasqua: I kind of have the feeling… What it seems like to me is this is almost like a storm hitting an island and there’s nobody on the island to see what kind of damage or how much the damage is that the storm is actually doing to it. And it’s not until really the storm passes that you’re going to be able to get a good idea of how much damage was actually done. Is that a fair assessment?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. Yeah, because there’s so much you can’t see, just looking at it even from an overview or down a major street. There’s still so much damage that that storm did. And I guess that was one of the points that I wanted to make was that the trickle down effect that this is… We can’t even quantify that yet. So, how can the stock market or any other index or economic data really predict the trickle down effect that hasn’t come that we know is on the horizon? So, it’s just a lot of unknown, a lot of uncertainty.

Brent Pasqua: Do you think we’re bringing a lot of manufacturing back?

Matthew Theal: I hope so. I mean, that’s a big problem with our supply chain right now is we’re so impacted by China, right? A lot of the PPE, even, that the healthcare workers need is over in China, because that’s where it’s manufactured. We’ve got to bring the manufacturing back to… Not the United States. I think the United States, we don’t really need manufacturing in our country, but just do it in Mexico. Do it a little closer to home. It doesn’t have to be factories back in Wisconsin or Michigan like it was back in the day.

Brent Pasqua: But even if you’re able to not be so dependent on one country or one area, I mean, you could bring some back to United States. You could bring some to Mexico, bring some to different areas, but you don’t have to be dependent on one area, because as we’ve seen, when a pandemic hits one area, and we still need medications and they can’t make the medication. That provides a huge problem.

Matthew Theal: That’s a problem.

Joshua Winterswyk: But you’re seeing that. What I like to see is the opportunity being seized. You’re seeing certain manufacturers doing, in America, masks. You’re seeing them make hand sanitizers. That’s not their primary business, so you see that there is space to support it here. So like you’re saying, Brent, I kind of agree with you. Let’s bring some of it back. We know that these manufacturers can produce enough of what we need, so we can fill that gap. Then, there’s more opportunity for us in this country, and we’ll be more stockpiled, because obviously, you can see there’s not enough. There’s a deficit in a lot of the products that people are looking for through this crisis.

Brent Pasqua: I think we’re going to actually finally find out how bad COVID ends up being as a global problem is once we start to see how much damage it does to poor nations. I mean, that’s the scary part is, we here are going to have a lot of deaths. Obviously, we’ve already seen that. We’re shortage on resources, but we do have a lot of resources. Those countries don’t have very many resources, and that’s what scariest. What’s it going to do to those countries? I mean, those could have impacts on them for decades into the future.

Matthew Theal: I agree.

Brent Pasqua: The other question that I was thinking about that I want to know what the long-term impacts going to be is really is how is retirement going to change for people? How much does this change for people’s retirement?

Matthew Theal: If I was older, and I’m getting ready to retire, I’m thinking sometime within the next two to eight years I want to retire. I mean, or even five years. Let’s call it that. It’s such a great time to retire right now, especially with the way the economy’s going to change. If you’re not great on technology, you don’t want to see the big changes in your corporation. Pull the plug and retire now. Go get that retirement dream home that you’ve been waiting for. Property prices are probably going to follow up in the next couple of years here. There’s no reason to keep working if you’re not happy or if things are changing for your job.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, there’s a handful of clients that we’ve been working with that are within six months or a year, year and a half, and we’ve been prepared for them to get retired, and they’re all moving timelines up. Some of them are just waiting for the dust to settle to help their businesses out during this challenging time, but it sounds like many people who are comfortably planned for retirement understand… I mean, I think we’ve all learned we could do with less right now. Everybody… I think most people are doing with less, spending less, having less items in their house. They’re moving their retirement up, and they can. I think that’s a great point. What are your thoughts, Josh?

Joshua Winterswyk: That’s one big variable that I think is, if you are looking at retiring in the next year or two, is you’re being forced to spend less, and there’s only so much you can spend on. What other time in history can you kind of say that? Where you were confined to your house, you were quarantined, being forced to spend less. So, now’s a good time to not only work on retirement, the plan, your cash flow, and your expenses, and kind of know that you’ll be kind of in this confinement for the short term, and there’s still opportunity to retire. I agree with you guys both.

Matthew Theal: I mean, hopefully the benefit long term is people just find out that they could spend less and live on less and enjoy on less. I mean, I felt that way as we’ve been in here for the last five, six weeks. I mean, do you guys feel the same way?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, I think that was kind of clarifying even what I was getting at, as well. It shows you that you can live on less naturally.

Matthew Theal: Yeah.

Brent Pasqua: Any other ways you think it can change retirement?

Matthew Theal: Other than people potentially… That younger generation. We’ll call them under 45, under 50 changing their view of how they want to live in retirement, if they’ve even thought that far ahead yet. Like I said, I think we’re going to see a big move to the warmer states and potentially more remote work. So, maybe instead of buying that house in the city, and then buying a retirement home in the future, you just pick your retirement home right now and go move there and work remotely. I could see something like that right now.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, I guess there’s so many things that can happen in the short term. There’s so many changes that can happen, and it looks like the long-term… There is going to be long-term impact, but also, I mean, there’s this chance that we could all go back to normal and nothing, very little changes, but I think there’s going to be substantial changes and hopefully they’re all mostly for the better and we’ve learned from it. We grow as a nation and as a society, and we grow from there. So, thank you for listening to the Retirement Plan Playbook. I’m Brent Pasqua, joined by Matthew Theal and Joshua Winterswyk. If you enjoyed our show and want more information, please go to for the show notes. It also has links for the show and more information. And then, also if you want to leave us a review on your podcast app, you could do that also. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to recording another show and talk to you soon. Bye bye.

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