The X’s & O’s

The Federal Reserve announced that they are going to continue to keep interest rates low for the foreseeable future. This will affect many areas of the financial world, but today we focus on how it will impact the housing market. Brent, Matthew, and Joshua will talk about the factors that have contributed to place us in a highly competitive seller’s market, as well as some considerations for pre-retirees and retirees who want to move to a new location.

The Hosts:

Brent Pasqua, Matthew Theal and Joshua Winterswyk

 

Transcript:

Brent Pasqua: Welcome to the Retirement Plan Playbook. We have a great show for you today. The group is all here. Matthew, Joshua, and I’m here, Brent. How are you guys doing today?

Matthew Theal: Good. Brent, can I just jump right into the warm-up today? Because I have something to report to the listeners.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I hope it’s a confession.

Matthew Theal: So after three months of using the Honey plugin, I finally saved some money with it. And I was wrong. It does work.

Brent Pasqua: Is that because Josh actually explained to you how you need to use it, and then you finally figured it out?

Matthew Theal: No, it was more just random luck that I was buying some food from the Thrive Market, and there happened to be a discount code that worked.

Joshua Winterswyk: I have some insight just what you were going to say right now. And just that you led with three months… I don’t even think it’s been three months since we were talking about Honey, but that’s great. And I’m just really happy to hear that you finally saved money because you were really down on it. But you made it a little bit more dramatic than it had to be about saving money.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I saved $30, I think, which is pretty big for a food order. And then I guess the question I have is, if I went to Thrive Market again and buy some food, will Honey still work, or is Honey never going to work again?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. They renew the coupon codes. So the coupon codes on there update. Now one of our RPA Recommends back in the podcast, several podcasts ago, was U.S. Wellness Meats. And Honey has their coupons on their website, but you’ve actually never used Honey to save you money or any other coupon on the meat company that you recommended. So you’ve been overpaying for the meat the entire time.

Matthew Theal: That’s not entirely true. I tried to use the Honey on the meat company last time because I thought it would work, and it didn’t work.

Joshua Winterswyk: Oh, you used it wrong then. Because I used it last night, and I saved money on it.

Brent Pasqua: I have a suspicion that it was like operator error this whole time, and you just finally learned how to use it.

Matthew Theal: I don’t know about that.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. So…

Matthew Theal: I’m still under 40. I can use a computer.

Brent Pasqua: I think what’s funny here though, is that we are not sponsored by Honey, but it’s probably like the most talked about topic over the last several months on this show.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, definitely. I think it was just Matt’s negativity towards it when we were really passionate about using it and that it works for us.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. So at RPA we don’t allow any days off from any of our employees. They are straight work all the time, but we let the exception happen this week. Josh, you took a couple of days off. How is your COVID-free vacation?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. So it was nice to actually get some days off. And me and my wife took a trip up to Paso Robles. We’ve been a few times, really like it, and had a great time. Did a couple of wine taste things. I guess, just to share my experience, everything was very safe as far as like COVID prevention. None of the wineries allowed you to go inside of their tasting rooms, or really be grouped with any other people. Very good spacing. It was pretty cool. And even one of the wineries had a little wine glass holder. So they weren’t actually holding any of the glasses, and they set them on the table and it releases the glasses. So the wine servers aren’t even touching what they’re dropping off to your table.

Joshua Winterswyk: So it felt really safe doing it. We had a great time, a few different wine tastings over the few days we were there, and it was nice to getaway. Back and refresh. So thanks guys for covering me Monday and Tuesday.

Brent Pasqua: Do you recommend this to others for something that they could do?

Joshua Winterswyk: That was going to be one of my recommendations, a part of this trip. But yes, I definitely do. It was nice to just… We took the drive up the coast and took the 101 up, and just to do something different. I felt like working from home, I don’t even drive anymore. And so just to take our time getting up the coast, and enjoying the scenery, and then being in a place like… Paso Robles’ population isn’t too dense. So everywhere we went there just wasn’t a lot of people even compared to where we live.

Joshua Winterswyk: So definitely, a recommend if you need to getaway. They have it pretty well set up even at the restaurants and stuff up there to keep everyone safe from COVID, and still be able to enjoy the city.

Brent Pasqua: Maybe in the show notes, we can put a couple of the places that you went for the listeners to go check out.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Brent Pasqua: All right. Well, let’s get into the headlines. The FDA is approving a COVID test by Abbott Laboratories. The results are supposed to be given within 15 minutes. They basically compare the test to a home pregnancy tests. Abbott plans to ship tens of millions of these tests by September, and then 50 million in October. What are your thoughts, Matt, about this new strategy of testing?

Matthew Theal: That sounds really great. And I saw that the accuracy on it is 98%, which is probably higher than the actual tests they are using it right now. So that’s really great. I mean, it seems like the test we’re using right now gives off a lot of false positives. I just picked that up from watching sports. But it’s so great. Like Josh was saying, he went on vacation and it’s really nice that the wineries are open, that he was able to stay at a hotel and Airbnb. This kind of testing device is going to really make that possible for people who are a little bit more nervous about traveling, and then hopefully, it’ll allow schools to open, and then workplace testing as well. It’s really great. What a win.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I guess what are their thoughts on … Are they going to have these machines in a lot of different places? Are they mass-producing the machines? Because I know you can get the little test kits that like… But I think you need the machine to do the testing, right?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I think so. I think the test kits are kind of over it.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah.

Matthew Theal: I would love to get them for my house. I’d just take a test every day.

Brent Pasqua: Right. I know. I think that’s what everybody would like to get, but I think … Obviously, that’s not going to happen.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. I think that, like you were saying, to just piggyback, leading to some sort of a conclusion hopefully to this COVID crisis, but opening up schools and workplaces. But then also we were talking about traveling. I mean, if you took a test before you left as well, or traveling with other people, and knowing that you’re safe, it’s opening up the doors for a lot of life that’s been closed off for a while with these tests, and them being so cheap. So excited about the news from Abbott.

Brent Pasqua: And I think what America is so good at is taking some kind of development like this, and then making it work across so many different aspects of our life. And I can’t imagine what innovation this possibly leads to in the future.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah.

Matthew Theal: You guys are a little young, but do you remember when prior to 9/11 you used to just be able to show up at the airport, and you could go through the metal detector, and get on your flight? But then after 9/11 you had to start showing up like hour, hour and a half early to get through all the screening? I wonder if that’s what’s going to happen with this Abbott test, right? Like, if you want to fly, now you have to show up to the airport 30 minutes on top of the extra hour and a half you have to. So really, you’re coming two hours early, and you have to take the Abbott test and wait in the COVID holding tank.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. That sounds like fun.

Matthew Theal: Do you think that’s what’s going to happen in the next month or so?

Brent Pasqua: I don’t know. I bet like the innovation is going to get pretty dynamic with this thing. I mean, they’ve been talking about this test for a while, so they’ve had time to plan for it. I would assume that they’re going to probably come out with some pretty good regulations and ways to utilize it.

Matthew Theal: Hopefully.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think that’s a good idea though, Matt. Keep it safe. If you had to travel, I’d rather know that everyone on the plane was COVID-free than not knowing even if that meant I had to be there half an hour earlier. So …

Matthew Theal: Totally agree.

Brent Pasqua: Interest rates are no longer said to be held the same. Matt, what does this mean?

Matthew Theal: Yeah. So the Federal Reserve kept interest rates where they are, which is extremely low, which just mean they’re pretty much 0%. And what this means for people is, they said they’re going to keep them low for an extended period of time. I believe they said at least four years. So we have interest rates lower for longer. It’s going to be like that period after 2008. And it’s the theme of our show today, is the housing market. And these lower rates are really going to be good for borrowers, right?

Matthew Theal: From credit card, to housing, to auto, it will make investment returns tougher for retirees, though, so as well.

Brent Pasqua: It doesn’t appear that they have a plan to raise them in the foreseeable future. Is that what you heard also?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, yeah. I think… I believe I read it’s at least the next two to four years, they want to see inflation really start to pick up before they raise interest rates again.

Joshua Winterswyk: Which is kind of against what their policy has been in the past, with kind of being before inflation as they raise interest rates. So that’s a little different and part of the headline as well, is that they’re shifting strategy of keeping these low-interest rates, and almost guaranteeing that. But like you said, good for borrowers, both on the auto and home, but then also business lending, right, to help businesses not only grow, but to continue to get them through this period, and for the next couple of years, but really bad for savers.

Brent Pasqua: Interest rates seem to be extremely low. We had them finally creeping up over the last couple of years, and then now we’re all the way back down again. So savings accounts aren’t paying anything all over again.

Brent Pasqua: All right, let’s get to the Retirement Planning Corner. Despite many predictions of an epic meltdown like 2007, the housing market is very strong. Today, let’s explore why that could be, and how it may impact retirees. Now, when the pandemic originally hit, my initial thought was that housing prices were going to get hit really hard, and it was just going to just tank. Did that happen, Matt? And what are really the statistics around the housing market?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, that’s what I thought too. I thought the housing market would be really weak, but actually quite the opposite has occurred. And the housing market is very strong right now. Let me throw some stats your way. So all of these stats are going to be as of July. The August data isn’t quite out yet. We’re at the end of the summer creeping up here in September. So the August data will come out around mid-September. It’s expected to be stronger than July data. So year over year, mortgage purchase applications, so people were requesting a new mortgage, it’s up 33%. The existing home sales, so that would be a home that’s already been made, sales up 8.7% year over year. New single-family sales, so that would be something you’d get that’s a brand new home from Toll Brothers, KB Homes, any of the big home builders that you see, up 13.9%. Huge increase there.

Matthew Theal: And in California, the state where we recorded the podcast, housing prices are up 9.6% year over year. Just incredible growth right now. And as someone who’s been shopping for a home since the pandemic started, I could tell you guys, this market’s on fire. It’s really hard just to even get your offer accepted.

Brent Pasqua: What’s your experience right now in shopping for a home? What’s that experience like?

Matthew Theal: So there’s no such thing as an open house anymore. You have to make an appointment to see a home, and then you’d go in, and you walk it with your realtor and your realtor only. So for me and my wife, it’s our realtor, and then the two of us. And after that, if you like the home, you put an offer in. It’s pretty much… you see it once. That’s it. The one thing I’ll say though, that I’ve noticed is, there’s been homes that looked very attractive online, that we want to go tour, and we’ve requested the tour of them, and we can’t even get a tour in before they sell. So we’ve missed three or four homes like that, that looked really attractive online. And before our tour happened, they sold.

Brent Pasqua: And from my understanding with your experience, they take offers all in one day, and they pick and select the offer that they want, and they move on, and it’s sold. It’s not like they’re sitting on the market for multiple days getting different offers throughout weeks and weeks.

Matthew Theal: Correct. Yeah. And then the sellers usually will put an offer deadline. So the offer deadline is Thursday. They review all the offers, they kick out the ones they don’t like, to tell the ones that they like they have till Saturday or Sunday to submit their best offer, and the best offer wins. There’s no deals out there.

Joshua Winterswyk: How long have you been looking? If you don’t mind me asking?

Matthew Theal: We’ve been looking since May.

Joshua Winterswyk: That’s a pretty long time, would you say?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, yeah. Actually, we were looking too before the pandemic started. So we kind of started looking in February and March, but that only lasted like a week or two before we had to put it on pause. And then we picked up in early May.

Joshua Winterswyk: And Brent, what do you think is leading to such high demand?

Brent Pasqua: You know, that’s a good question. I think, obviously … Matt, have you noticed that inventory is extremely low right now?

Matthew Theal: Yeah. Inventory is really low, or the way they say it in the industry is it’s tight. There’s just not a lot of homes coming for sale.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. My guess is a couple of things. Most people still aren’t really comfortable with moving during this whole period of time, during COVID, number one. I would think that corporate jobs, and jobs aren’t really shifting people to other areas as much as they used to if there’s still a lot of stay at home orders. So people aren’t moving to and from their current location. So there’s probably a lot of that going on, just leading to less reasons why there’s less houses being put on the market.

Brent Pasqua: And I think a lot of people are seemingly just upgrading their current home instead of moving right now.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. You’re seeing that in the data. Home Depot, Lowe’s, West … I think it’s West Elm, or what’s the other big… Is it Restoration Hardware? They’ve all reported really big numbers on the home remodel side.

Brent Pasqua: Josh, do you think that the housing market crashes in the next few years?

Joshua Winterswyk: That’s a good question. We were talking about interest rates earlier, and interest rates remaining still very low. And interest rates being low is good for anyone continuing to buy a home. And so does interest rates’ staying low continue the high demand for housing? And with this new life, with this pandemic, and people looking to kind of nest, or move to the suburbs, and having more demand along with all of those reasons you just said, what’s really going to drive the housing market down? Unless the pandemic continues to come back or hit us hard, and more people are losing jobs, and as a complete economic shutdown again, but if we’re going to continue on pace like we are now, the demand’s not going down.

Joshua Winterswyk: And we’re seeing… Wall Street Journal did an article about the increase of millennials in the housing market. So up over 6% since last year, millennials are buying property. So now, we’re having a whole new generation flooding the market as well, and then also everyone else who is already looking for a home. So there’s an increase in that generation to buying the home. So with interest rates staying low, with the demand, in my opinion, staying very high… I know Matt said he’s looking for a home. Me and my wife have already been through this. This is a personal story, but are already looking and planning of our next step, and upgrading our home as we continue to grow our family. The demand’s there.

Joshua Winterswyk: And especially in our area, with just geographically, and the lack of new homes being built, I really see it hard that the market’s going to crash, to answer your question.

Matthew Theal: That’s a good point, Josh. And I’ll give a little of my own experience. When we go to open houses or tours, sometimes there’s a line to get in because there’s a backup. So you kind of just wait with your realtor, and queue. And all of the people who are purchasing the homes are under 40.

Joshua Winterswyk: Interesting.

Matthew Theal: And usually who’s selling is either a flipper or an older couple who’s retiring.

Brent Pasqua: And I don’t know if you know these stats, but are housing prices in major cities declining, or are they on the same track as what we’re seeing in the suburbs and in different areas of California?

Matthew Theal: I guess I’ll take that. I don’t know all the stats behind each city, but I know San Francisco is struggling, and New York is struggling. It seems like LA is struggling a little bit at the high end. And what I mean the high end, I mean property priced over two million, which is to be expected in a recession. But that low-end range in LA, anything below a million dollars gets soaked up really fast or bought really fast. And then the spot where we see a ton of competition is between like a million to 1.3 million, those entry-level prices for people under 40 who are millennials, who are high-income earners.

Brent Pasqua: Do you think, Josh, that a lot of people would then start buying some of these office pods that can possibly go in their backyards to make their home more conducive to have an office in your backyard?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s going to grow in popularity. I also think just the addition, like we’re seeing already. When I was talking about Home Depot and Restoration Hardware, upgrading your home, whether it’s adding just more space somewhere, more space maybe even for another family member because they can’t find a home. So adding onto that existing property.

Joshua Winterswyk: And to go back to the question about prices increasing, I did see an article on prices year over year for new home builds is up over 7%. So the demand for new homes, especially in our area, is growing and increasing the price along with the cost of lumber going up. So just to kind of touch base on that, as well, is increasing the price and the markets going up for brand new homes, not existing.

Brent Pasqua: And then I guess what a lot of people also are probably wanting to know is, how does this really impact retirees?

Matthew Theal: It’s interesting because I think that it could have a couple of big impacts. Number one, we talked to a lot of our clientele who’s either retiring or they have ambition to retire in the next four or five years. And a lot of them want to move out of the state of California, for obvious reasons. The state of California has a lot of flaws right now.

Matthew Theal: But there’s still a generation of people who need to stay in California for work. Right? I need to stay in California. The two of you need to stay in California. So we’re going to be natural buyers of these retirees’ homes. And like Josh was saying, there’s a lot of strong demand from our age group right now. And that’s probably going to help keep housing prices stable or move them higher. So I think retirees who are scared that the housing market’s going to crash, and they want to take their chips off the table so they can get their dream home, I think the data says that you don’t need to panic, and just go slow.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. That was my next question for Josh, too. And it kind of leads into that. So if you’re a retiree right now, who’s a few years, let’s say, away from retiring, and when you retire, you want to move, whether it’s out of state, or downsize, or whatever, would you consider right now selling your home and then going and renting for a few years and parking the money while the market’s as hot as it is?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. Potentially. And especially if you don’t know exactly where you want to be. I think now’s a good time if you do have the flexibility to move, and you’re thinking about moving out of state, maybe you go rent in a few cities in the next few years and sell. Yes, there’s always the potential that the housing market continues to go up. And that was what I was forecasting in the last question, but what if it doesn’t? What if it does?

Joshua Winterswyk: But now is a great time. Housing prices are high. Interest rates are still low, so people can afford to still buy. And maybe you do pick up and move, and go try somewhere else. Because if you don’t know where you want to be, it doesn’t make very much sense for you to buy a home and take out a mortgage unless going to stay there for at least five to seven years. We know that most of those payments in the front of that mortgage are going to be interest, plus the cost you’re going to pay. So jumping into a mortgage when you don’t know exactly where you want to be isn’t going to be the best… not going to be the most efficient housing decision.

Brent Pasqua: But to try and time where housing prices are going to be three years from now is nearly as complicated as picking and deciding where the stock market’s going to be three years from now. Is that correct?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s more about being prepared. Can you afford the next move? Does it fit your financial plan? Can you really see yourself there for more than seven years? And answering all of those questions… I think that if all of those questions are yes, or you have a really clear picture on what your future is going to be like, and it’s affordable, then we start to look at some of those decisions to move or sell the home. And it’s less about timing the market. Because it’s really hard, if you’re staying in the same area right now, if interest rates stay low and your house is accumulating and growing in value, so is the potential house you’re going to buy. So unless you’re truly moving to a lower cost of living state or area, to try to downsize here is pretty tough.

Joshua Winterswyk: And Brent, I think you’d probably see that looking at homes as well in the area, if you have a two-story home in Rancho Cucamonga, and you’re trying to find a one-story I’m going to Rancho Cucamonga, there’s not that big of a downgrade in price. So if you’re doing it for a cashflow or economic, financial reason, it’s really hard right now to even make that decision because the price variance isn’t very big.

Brent Pasqua: And Matt, if somebody were to sell and then put their money on the side, and they were going to buy in a couple of years once they do retire, where would they… naturally, most people would be putting their money at during that time period?

Matthew Theal: That’s the thing. It’s kind of an inconsistent philosophy because there’s only a few different things we can invest in. We’ve already established that CDs, interest rates, savings accounts, like we’ve been talking about this for months, those are paying no interest anymore. So that leaves you bond market. Okay. So maybe you put your money in bonds, you get 2, 3%. Great. That’s historically below the price that houses have risen. So there, you’re probably better off keeping your house.

Matthew Theal: And then, if you want to go into the stock market, okay. Great. You’re going to get higher returns than your house. We know that historically, the stock market does 9%. Historically, houses do around four. That said, you’re going to take on a lot of risk. You’re going to take on more risk in the stock market than you would just holding your home in the house housing market. So I don’t know, there’s really nowhere to put your money.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, I guess that this decision comes with a lot of very careful planning. And if you do really careful financial planning, and it’s detailed out, then this decision can really be broken down very specific in what it means to dollars and cents.

Brent Pasqua: Because at some point you’re going to want to factor in, can you transfer the cost of your property tax to the new property? So when would you have to buy the new property, buy it to transfer the property tax, and what are you looking at to purchase the new home for? So there’s probably a lot of factors that would probably want to be considered before making such an important decision, but it’s not something that is something we can assume that retirees and moves they should make during this time. Would you agree?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I agree.

Joshua Winterswyk: I definitely agree. There’s just so many factors. And obviously, we talked about a few of them there, but it has to be very carefully planned because the general solution of downgrading your home isn’t so easy anymore.

Brent Pasqua: Now for people who are already retired, we’ve had a number of clients that have sold their primary home and then went on to buy two different homes, generally one that’s in a warm climate area, and then one’s in a cooler climate area, and they spend time between both. And sometimes they’re for tax purposes, and sometimes they’re for just the ability to travel in between based on different seasons. We have some clients that are using, when they’re not at one home, as an Airbnb. And then they’ll flip flop that. Is it a good time for people who are retired that maybe… taking these thoughts into consideration? Is it a good time for them to be considering that?

Matthew Theal: To move out of California and buy two homes?

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. California or any state they’re in, to buy… Well, yeah. Let’s say California, just to sell their California property to buy two other homes in two different areas?

Matthew Theal: Yeah. I think it’s a great idea if their retirement plan allows them to. I don’t know about the two of you, but I’m a big… I don’t like my clients to have a large mortgage in retirement. I think it just creates a lot of added stress. So if your planning can’t afford it, then it’s probably not an option. You might have to just pick a home in once city, state, whatever, and go on vacation like everybody else.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think it does make it more complicated. I mean, managing the two properties, and then if you’re going to involve also renting it, and having it in Airbnb, how are you going to leverage the properties between the two. Is only one going to have a mortgage? Is two? Or are you going to buy them cash? I mean, again, just a lot of planning. It makes it more complicated. I have seen it be successful. That’s why I’m not saying that it isn’t, but it just depends on also your goal. Like Matt said, having one home and taking an extra vacation because you don’t have the cost of another property. You really have to ask yourself if that’s the type of lifestyle you want in retirement.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I completely agree. It’s something that needs to be planned very careful on in a financial plan. I’ve seen clients do it really successfully though, where they’ve sold their primary. It’s been a big, expensive house. They bought a smaller home or a condo locally because they want to still be in this area, and then bought another property in another area in cash, and had no mortgages on either home. It is something to consider if it is your desire to be in two different locations throughout the year. So it can be done, but something… Yeah, I completely agree it needs to be done very carefully within the plan.

Brent Pasqua: All right, let’s get on to my favorite part of the show, the RPA Recommends. I think we’ve talked enough about Honey. So Josh, let’s start with you on our RPA Recommend today.

Joshua Winterswyk: I don’t know if we recommended it, but a few times ago when we took our trip to Paso Robles, we signed up for a wine club up there. And so we went to our wine club membership while we went up there, which was cool because they give you free tastings if you go back and you’re continuously being a wine club member. So my recommendation is just a wine club to your favorite winery is pretty awesome. They ship either two or three times a year directly to your home. So we get a wine shipment a couple of times a year that’s shipped from our favorite winery. So we get to enjoy the wine. It makes us think about the memories we made up in Paso Robles and stuff, and just a very cool service that we like. And they usually switch it up. So we usually get some different wines, and it has some other perks to it if you’re gifting wines from that winery. But that’s my Recommends. We really enjoy it, and we were happy to go back to our wine club winery on Monday, which was fun.

Brent Pasqua: Matt, what do you have for us for our RPA Recommend?

Matthew Theal: Yeah. So we went a good three, four months without sports, right? So it’s from March to probably July. So I watched a lot of streaming TV. And my wife and I actually finished all of Netflix, if you guys can believe that. We have watched every show on Netflix that’s worth watching. So we tried Apple TV+, and they don’t have as many shows as like a Netflix does, but there are a few good shows. Right now we’re watching The Morning Show and we’re watching Ted Lasso. But so far, it’s actually my second favorite streaming service behind Netflix. From a quality standpoint, they do put seaming really good quality into their shows, and the streaming quality it’s really nice. It’s not like Hulu, or HBO, or… sometimes in my opinion, that stream quality is not that great.

Brent Pasqua: Nice. So I have a recommend also. And you probably already watched this Matt, since you’ve seen every show on Netflix. The other day, my wife and I watched the David Foster Off the Record documentary on Netflix. It was absolutely phenomenal. I was into it the entire time. I felt like it was almost similar to the Michael Jordan documentary where I was just completely just into it. I’m a big documentary guy. I like hearing and learning about people’s success stories. It is phenomenal. If you don’t know a lot about his story, his background, his career, it is absolutely great. I’d go check it out. It’s on Netflix. It’s called Off the Record. But it is an absolutely great story. So I would definitely check it out.

Joshua Winterswyk: I mean, that sounds like a fun night. Our listeners can join a wine club, get wine delivered to their door, and now they have two shows to watch.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. But if they buy anything online, they can just use Honey.

Joshua Winterswyk: There you go. The wine club might have a Honey discount.

Brent Pasqua: There you go.

Joshua Winterswyk: We’re setting up someone for a good evening.

Brent Pasqua: So for Josh, for Matt, and for Brent, thank you for listening to the Retirement Plan Playbook. Please give us a review on wherever you stream your podcasts. If you’d like to learn more about us, or read our show notes, please go to Retirement Plan Playbook. Thanks for listening.

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