The X’s & O’s

The new year brings new changes to retirement and tax laws with the passing of the SECURE Act. This week we will discuss the main points of interest of this bill and different planning strategies you need to know before you retire.

Listen to the podcast episode…

The Hosts:

Brent Pasqua, Matthew Theal and Joshua Winterswyk



Matthew Theal: Welcome to The Retirement Plan Playbook. I’m Matthew Theal, a certified financial planner with RPA Wealth Management. I’m joined as always by Joshua Winterswyk. Josh, how you doing today?

Joshua Winterswyk: I’m doing well. Ready to start 2020.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. Crazy, right? A new decade. I feel like the last one flew by.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah.

Matthew Theal: And joining us back again on the podcast is RPA President Brent Pasqua. Brent, how are you today?

Brent Pasqua: Doing great and excited for the new year and happy to get this podcast kicked off for this year.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. And tell us how was your holidays?

Brent Pasqua: My holiday was outstanding. We had a few days off because of the way that the break laid out and my kids being three and five years old had a great Christmas, and it’s a perfect age to see their eyes when they see the presents that come and everything that goes with that special season.

Matthew Theal: So Santa came to your house?

Brent Pasqua: Oh, yeah.

Joshua Winterswyk: Do you guys also do Elf on the Shelf? I know that’s popular.

Brent Pasqua: We do.

Joshua Winterswyk: What’s your elf name?

Brent Pasqua: Candy Can. We have two. We have a boy and a girl.

Joshua Winterswyk: Oh, okay.

Brent Pasqua: And… it’ll come to me. You’re putting me on the spot here.

Joshua Winterswyk: No, it’s all good. Sorry to put you on the spot.

Matthew Theal: Joshua, how was your holidays?

Joshua Winterswyk: Mine was great. It was my first Christmas as a married man and got to just spend a lot of good family time with family and friends, with my wife, and we enjoyed the break. So I’m excited for 2020.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I bet you had to do a little house hopping?

Joshua Winterswyk: We did. Yeah. We bounced around to a few different houses, but it’s always fun. We like to see all of our family and jump around to each house. So had a lot of fun.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. That’s basically what my holiday season is, house hopping and then finally on Boxing Day I get to sit down and relax and watch some Premier League games and maybe a couple of college football games.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. That’s what I did on boxing day too. It was nice. I look forward to that day as well.

Matthew Theal: Yeah.

Joshua Winterswyk: How was your Christmas?

Matthew Theal: Oh, it was good. A lot of house hopping. It doesn’t really start, though, till Boxing Day, 26.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. Boxing Day is nice. Are you familiar with Boxing Day?

Brent Pasqua: I have no idea.

Joshua Winterswyk: It’s a UK holiday. Is that fair to say?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, it’s a British holiday.

Joshua Winterswyk: A British holiday and they load the day with Premier League soccer. So for Premier League soccer fans like Matt and myself, it’s just sit on your couch and recover from Christmas and watch soccer, which is nice.

Brent Pasqua: And that’s all day long?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. Like for us it’s from early in the morning until about 2:00.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I think the first game starts at like 4:00 or 5:00 AM. And then the last game I think starts at noon.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. On our time. But for them it’s like our Sunday football all day. You’re kind of relating it to American sports.

Brent Pasqua: So I remember what our elves’ names were. It’s Snowflake and Candy Can, and the reason it was Candy Can is because when my daughter named it, she was like two years old, she couldn’t say candy cane. So she was just saying candy cans the whole time. And so she named it Candy Can. She likes candy canes.

Matthew Theal: That’s really cute.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think I remember your son telling me one of their name was Snowflake. Very cool.

Matthew Theal: All right, so we’ve got a really important show lined up for our listeners today. So give you a little background, while most people were kind of enjoying the holiday season, there’s actually a really important congressional retirement law that ended up passing and got signed into law by the president. So we have quite a few new tax and retirement laws that took effect on January 1st of 2020. Brent, why don’t you kind of give us a little introduction to the SECURE Act, which is what we are talking about and what ended up happening to get this through.

Brent Pasqua: So the SECURE Act stands for Setting Every Community Up for Retirement Enhancement. It was actually passed by the house in the summer of 2019, and then it actually got stalled in the Senate and really had no traction at that point. But thanks to lobbyists, it was attached to an end of the year appropriations bill that Congress had to pass to keep the government running. And essentially on December 20th the president signed in the SECURE Act, and there were pretty substantial changes now made to some of the features in retirement planning and some of these things that affect people’s retirements.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, there are some massive changes to retirement and tax planning, and unfortunately there’s so many changes that we’re going to have to break this up over two or three shows over the course of the year. But we thought we would kind of focus today’s show on the three or four more important changes that you can start impacting on your financial planning in 2020.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, I think it’s important to discuss the basic essentials to these changes and how they’re going to impact, and I think there’s obviously key dates here that people are now going to be aware of and what those changes are. I think there’s some immediate impacts. So I think those are good to, not going too deep into them and making it confusing, but on the surface there’s some really good changes for people to know about.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, and if you retired in the last five years or you’re planning to retire in the next five years, you need to listen to this show because your retirement is being impacted.

Brent Pasqua: Sure, yeah.

Matthew Theal: I agree.

Joshua Winterswyk: There’s a lot of important changes. I think it came as kind of a surprise. I don’t think that we really had the expectation that it was going to get passed at the end of the last year.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. And beyond the three that we’re talking about for today, I mean there’s a lot more beyond these and there was a lot that actually went into this.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, I agree.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, there is. I honestly was one who I heard about this law passed in the House in the summer, and I didn’t even read it because I was like, “You know what? There is no way this is going through.”

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. These are pretty substantial changes.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. All right, well let’s get started with the first one. So this is a massive change. The Stretch IRA is now dead. Josh, what was the stretch IRA? What was the old rule?

Joshua Winterswyk: The old rule for a stretch IRA is when someone passes away and leaves a qualified retirement account, their designated beneficiaries are able to stretch the distribution over their life expectancy. And so what that means in just a quick summary is if someone passes away and you’re inheriting an actual retirement account, the IRS mandates that you do have to take a portion of that account out each year based off life expectancy. And that was the old rule. They use a mortality table and you have a calculation of a dollar amount each year that you have to take out once you inherit.

Matthew Theal: And this was a benefit to people who inherited retirement accounts because they could continue to get tax deferral on the money they inherited. Is that correct?

Joshua Winterswyk: Correct. And not take it all out as a lump sum. So if you’re inheriting a significant retirement account and you had to realize that lump sum payment, let’s say that the payment was $100,000 that you inherited, that would all go on one year’s tax return. So this was a strategy that not only helped tax-wise each year, but also with the tax deferral of the growth of the account.

Brent Pasqua: So as an example, let’s say your mom passed away and you inherited $100,000. You’re 50 years old. You roll that $100,000 in your inherited IRA. Before, each year you would have to take out, just to make numbers simple, let’s say $3,500, out of the IRA to satisfy that distribution. That was under the old rule.

Joshua Winterswyk: Correct. Correct. Good example.

Matthew Theal: Great example. So tell us Brent, what’s the new rule?

Brent Pasqua: The new rule says that if you inherit a retirement account or qualified accountant, an IRA, Roth IRA, 401k plan, in 2020 or beyond, the entire retirement account must be emptied by the end of the 10th year. So now, essentially, you cannot stretch that out and take payments like that $3,500 payment over your life. It now has to be taken out over 10 years or within 10 years.

Matthew Theal: Sounds like tax revenue’s about to go up.

Brent Pasqua: By the billions.

Joshua Winterswyk: So essentially what’s happening here is instead of stretching this out over a 20 or 30 year period, you now have 10 years you take the money out, and your tax bill is probably going to be slightly higher.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. So in that same example, if you inherited 100,000, I mean you could be taking out 10,000 each and every year. You can wait till the 10th year and take out the 100,000 plus the interest it’s made. You could take it out over the last five years. There’s a lot of different ways that now you’re being forced to potentially take that out and pay a bigger tax bill in a sooner amount of time.

Matthew Theal: So this is probably a net negative for the consumer.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, I think in most instances, yes.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. It’s basically giving you one RMD 10 years from when you inherit the account, saying you just have to distribute all of that account by the 10th year. And it’s one simple calculation of making sure it’s all out of that account.

Matthew Theal: Right.

Brent Pasqua: Now, Matt, there are some people that are exempt from this new rule, correct?

Matthew Theal: There are. So if you are a spouse and you inherit a retirement account, then you are exempt. If you are disabled as defined by IRC section 72(n)(7). You can Google that and look it up on your own what the definition is. You are exempt if you’re chronically ill as defined by IRC section 7702B(c)(2). Again, you could look that up on your own time. Then you are also exempt from this rule.

Matthew Theal: Here’s one that’s kind of confusing to say, it’s a mouthful, but if you are an individual who is not more than 10 years younger than the decedent, then you are also exempt from this rule. This is the one where I thought you could have some planning strategies around this for extremely wealthy families. You could continue to kick the can down the road. And then certain minor children are exempt from this, but once they reach the age of majority in the state, then they are no longer exempt.

Brent Pasqua: So is that when the 10 years would start, from the time of when they reached that age?

Matthew Theal: You know, I’m actually not sure.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yes.

Matthew Theal: All right.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yep. Yeah, I actually saw that, read about that exception, and the 10 years would start as soon as they become the age of majority of whatever your state mandates. So if your state says that age of majority is 18, then at 18 the 10 year rule starts.

Brent Pasqua: Wow.

Matthew Theal: Well, I’m going to open this as more of an open-ended question directed to both of you, but what are some planning strategies around this? How can we help… This is obviously a net negative for consumers, but how can we help make it somewhat of a positive using financial planning?

Brent Pasqua: I think one of the positives are if you inherited an IRA and you’re still working, but you’re going to plan to retire in, let’s say five years from now, you can defer taking any distributions out of your inherited IRA till that point. And then when you’re a lower tax bracket because now you’re retired, now you start taking out the distributions from the IRA.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. So essentially what you could do is plan your retirement around the new account you just inherited and distributed it all when your income is essentially zero so you could maybe delay social security?

Brent Pasqua: Potentially. Absolutely.

Matthew Theal: You could delay taking your pension?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yes.

Matthew Theal: You could delay taking any money from your own retirement account?

Brent Pasqua: Absolutely.

Matthew Theal: And deplete your newly inherited IRA or 401k first, pay low taxes on it, and then start up your own retirement plan?

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, that would be kind of planning 101 that we could see on the surface.

Joshua Winterswyk: It’s a great strategy.

Matthew Theal: Any planning strategies you see, Josh, besides that main one?

Joshua Winterswyk: I think this just creates an opportunity of reviewing your estate plan, because who is inheriting your money? There could be a difference of taxes about who inherits the actual account. So whether if it’s a child, whether if it’s a brother, a spouse. So I just think that with this new act that just passed, it’s an opportunity to look at your estate plan and making sure that you understand the consequences of who is inheriting the money to making sure that we can limit the taxes as much as we can.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, it really changes things for grandkids inheriting money as IRAs.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, and do we even have them inherit, right? So what assets are going to which people to make the most tax sense. So I think it just creates a really good opportunity to… If you haven’t had an estate review or need to do one, here’s another reason why to do it and making sure we get it right.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. I would say this now probably becomes one of the worst assets that a generation below yours can inherit. It just doesn’t add so that would be a grandchild. It doesn’t add a lot of benefit to them at all.

Brent Pasqua: And a lot of complication. I mean for someone that’s 18 managing an inherited IRA that has to be liquidated in 10 years, I mean, what 18 year old wants to be dealing with that or their parents at that point and planning for it and dealing with the taxes? So I think it just makes it a lot more complicated as well.

Matthew Theal: I think what you’re saying is absolutely correct that now you almost have to get back to the drawing board on how and which assets are all being distributed to who and when and how much, and now you have to re, kind of, calculate how that’s all going to go because that just changed everything.

Brent Pasqua: Right.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. Anything left on stretch IRAs?

Brent Pasqua: I’m sure there’s going to be a lot more that comes with this.

Joshua Winterswyk: I was thinking the same thing.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, with your pass-through provisions inside of this trust and there’s a lot more, I believe, that’s going to come through this. But I think for where we’re at right now and how new the law is, let’s leave it at that with this.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, I agree. And I think the stretch IRA rule is so big that will be able to do its own… It’ll get its own show in the future.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah. And if you’re out there listening and thinking about that pass-through trust, maybe that’s what we add to the next episode, too.

Matthew Theal: Okay, so the next major one, and if the last one was a net negative, this is probably a net positive. I don’t see how it can be viewed as a negative unless you don’t qualify for this. But the RMD rule, required minimum distribution, was moved from 70 and a half to 72. Josh, what was the old rule?

Joshua Winterswyk: So RMD, or required minimum distribution, is the amount that the IRS mandates that you have to take out of your qualified retirement accounts at the age of 70 and a half. So the old rule was 70 and a half starts your RMD, required minimum distribution.

Matthew Theal: Brent, what’s the new rule?

Brent Pasqua: The new rule basically states that any individual basically who hasn’t or isn’t 70 and a half in 2019, wouldn’t have to start taking out their distributions from their IRA or 401k plan until actually 72. When I say 401k, that’s assuming you’re no longer working.

Matthew Theal: So essentially what an RMD is, is the government forcing you to take money out of your retirement account? Is that pretty accurate?

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, so if you have an IRA, before you had reached 70 and a half, you had to start taking money out of it each year. Now they pushed it till 72.

Matthew Theal: Hmm. That’s interesting. So what happens to someone who is of RMD age right now and they’re 70 and a half, 71, or about to turn 72 this year, do they have to take an RMD?

Brent Pasqua: Yes.

Matthew Theal: So they’re not grandfathered in?

Brent Pasqua: No, they still have to take it.

Joshua Winterswyk: So, if you’ve started, you’re not stopping?

Brent Pasqua: Nope. If you were 70 and a half last year, you continue on. And I don’t really know why they even had the 70 and a half, right? It just made it confusing to people.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think it was a positive to the rule change. Now it’s just 72.

Brent Pasqua: Everyone’s counting months on their fingers and when in the year they turn 70 and a half.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think for a planner, yeah, just easier to explain and track.

Matthew Theal: Well, this rule is pretty straight forward, and I see this as a positive because obviously in a way you could just kick the can down the road and save on a tax bill. The RMDs when you are a high net worth individual can be quite a burden tax-wise, and we do a lot of planning around that to help clients out. Brent, what are some planning strategies you could see here, if there are any? There might not be any really good ones.

Brent Pasqua: The one that I see is if you are in a position to do Roth conversions, you can convert two more years of money from your IRA or qualified account into your Roth IRA, which then makes it beneficial long-term on a tax deferral basis. So if you are working with an advisor or you are doing Roth conversions, and it does help for another two years.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, it does. Especially for high net worth clients who are trying to convert to the Roth. And that’ll help actually with the stretch rule, right? The stretch IRA rule does apply to Roth IRAs, but you don’t have to pay tax on it, so it’s kind of just like you’re taking a lump sum in tax-free money.

Brent Pasqua: Yep.

Matthew Theal: Josh, any of the other planning strategies?

Joshua Winterswyk: No, I think just when you’re creating your withdrawal strategy or your plan within your retirement plan, I think, again, it just opens up more opportunities. So this is another opportunity change of we’re going to have two extra years to kind of strategically plan your withdrawal strategy for retirement because nothing’s being forced to be taken out of your retirement accounts. So I think that you have more flexibility as a consumer to manage your withdrawals or your income appropriately for tax year. And I also was reading that it benefits people that, which makes sense, but people that were born in the first part of the year because of the 70 and a half rule. You’re getting a full two extra years. So congrats to everyone that was born months one through six. You’re getting a full two extra years.

Brent Pasqua: Do you think this changes people to work longer?

Matthew Theal: Possibly. I mean, I think that there’s a certain subset of the population who are overachievers and they have really no plan to stop working. And a lot of times because of the way their retirement system does line up that age 70 made a lot of sense to retire, one because social security doesn’t increase anymore, and two because they’re forced to start taking money out of their retirement accounts, especially if they own a small business. There’s actually a way around the 70 and a half rule if you are still working for your employer. That said, I wonder if this is a precursor to move social security to 72.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, that’s what we were talking about yesterday. I think that this is a precursor for full retirement age going to probably 70. That would be my guess, and it wouldn’t apply to people getting ready to retire right now, but it would be getting ready for people born in the 70s, I would assume.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. 68, 70, somewhere in that age range. And then now 72 is where you get the full roll up. You’re going to be working longer people.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah.

Matthew Theal: Okay. So our next change is another net benefit if you do qualify for it. But previously you got to stop contributing to your IRA at 70 and a half, and now that is no longer a thing. So Joshua, explain the old rule to us.

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, you did a good job, actually, just with the title of the old rule, but you couldn’t contribute into your IRA after 70 and a half was the old rule. So once you hit that 70 and a half, you were required. The old rule was you had to take an RMD, required minimum distribution, and you were not allowed to contribute any more money into your IRA.

Matthew Theal: Perfect. Well put. Brent, what’s the new rule?

Brent Pasqua: The new rule states that an individual of any age can contribute to an IRA as long as they have earned income.

Matthew Theal: Okay, so this is where people get confused. Josh, what’s considered earned income?

Joshua Winterswyk: Earnings from working, so if you have small business, if you’re working for an employer. So this is actually income that’s being earned by your labor hours, if you want to call it that.

Matthew Theal: So W2 earnings, 1099 earnings, you can contribute to an IRA post-70 and a half now. If you have a pension and that’s your only source of income, no, you do not qualify for this. If you have social security, no, you don’t qualify for this. That’s not earned income. You have to have actual working income. What are some planning strategies around this?

Brent Pasqua: Well, before, once you are having to take out you can no longer put in. So it’s like if you’re taking out and then putting in, it’s kind of just offsetting, but now under the new rule you can put in, but you’re still going to be taken out if you’re over 72, right? So that’s pretty interesting.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, it is interesting. One thing that I was thinking, though, you could do is let’s say that you have a spouse that’s still working. You could use a spousal IRA here if you are retired, if there is an age gap in that. That would be a really good planning strategy actually to defer some extra money.

Brent Pasqua: Or whatever. And if you took your distribution from your IRA, converted it to your Roth, and then made contributions to your IRA.

Matthew Theal: I don’t know the law of that fine, if you’re allowed to do that, but it might be possible.

Brent Pasqua: Right.

Joshua Winterswyk: As long as you just realize the tax, but when there is an age gap and maybe even potentially if there’s not, even just depending on the couple’s health, one’s projected to live a lot longer. Let’s still put money into that spouse’s IRA for the tax deferral. Right? I mean, that’s a little bit more in-depth question with the clients or the couple, but I really like that strategy mat of maximizing a younger spouse through this period if there isn’t an income.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, so I think that’s something I’ll be doing with the majority of my clients this year who do still have working income will be utilizing spousal IRAs for those who do fit this criteria.

Joshua Winterswyk: And in this rule, in this SECURE Act, again, screams people working longer. Right? Like we want to give benefits to people working longer so here it is.

Brent Pasqua: Screams working longer and more tax dollars.

Joshua Winterswyk: Right.

Brent Pasqua: And we’re only, what, two weeks into this?

Matthew Theal: Yeah, if that. I mean, they’re still paging through the law. You know how laws are in Washington. They’re still getting clarifications on the tax bill last year with the IRS. They’re still waiting for certain letters to be issued and clarifications around this rule or that rule. So people are going to pick this rule apart and then they’re going to have to get clarification.

Joshua Winterswyk: Sure. And two big rule changes all in the last couple of years, like the tax law change and then the SECURE Act. So a lot of planning opportunities and a lot of things to be mindful of.

Matthew Theal: So those are really the three big ones for retirees coming up who will be retiring in the next five years or who already have retired in the last five years. There’s been a number of changes, though, to retirement and tax laws. A few that we did want to mention on the show to watch out for are going to be annuities are now allowed in 401k plans. Brent, I know you’re the annuity guy on the show. Any commentary there?

Brent Pasqua: Yeah, it’d be another beware, depending on the types of contracts that they’re putting into your 401k plan and how much you’re going to contribute to the annuity contract and what you’re going to actually get out of it. Some of those cap rates and fixed rates, it screams to me, beware.

Matthew Theal: It’s kind of crazy how we went from in 20… Was it 2015? With Obama, where it looked like annuities weren’t going to be allowed to be sold in retirement accounts at all?

Brent Pasqua: Right.

Matthew Theal: To this new law where now annuities will be placed in on probably everyone’s 401k in the next two or three years.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. It’s like the exact opposite of where the law was going and where it should have ended up and now we’re here.

Matthew Theal: Insurance lobbyists.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I wonder where those lobbyists are coming from, who they represented.

Joshua Winterswyk: I think we can safely assume.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. Jackson National, Prudential, Alliance. This is a really cool new change for young people. So in the year you have a child or adopt a child, you could take a $5,000 distribution from your IRA. Josh, this is cool, right?

Joshua Winterswyk: Yeah, yeah. I really like this in the SECURE Act. And for the reason, again, just flexibility. I think a lot of younger people when they’re introduced to retirement planning, retirement accounts, one of the biggest knocks is that I can’t take any money out until I’m 59 and a half, and it might just be getting started. So this gives some really nice flexibility within an IRA to say, okay, I can put some money in there, but if I have a life changing event, like having a child, I can take out 5,000 and it can be from mine and it could also be from my spouse. So that money can be used for variety of different things when you’re having a child, those years can be projected to be very expensive when you have a child. So really like this new rule.

Matthew Theal: Did you read a lot about this rule?

Joshua Winterswyk: I did.

Matthew Theal: Okay. I didn’t really read about this rule, but I have a question for you, and I think this would actually make this rule non-beneficial for high earners, but is the distribution tax-free, or do you have to pay the tax?

Joshua Winterswyk: It’s waving the penalty. The tax is still owed, from what I understand.

Matthew Theal: And does it qualify for a Roth IRAs?

Joshua Winterswyk: I’ll have to double check on that. That’ll be next episode. I didn’t read on the Roth provision for that.

Matthew Theal: Well, because you could see why if you know you’re a high net worth earner in a high tax bracket, this law wouldn’t even apply to you.

Joshua Winterswyk: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it’s another tool in your toolbox from an IRA to look into. So really like that. And you have a full year to withdrawal it so you have some time to research after your child’s born.

Matthew Theal: What your tax situation would be.

Joshua Winterswyk: Oh, I know Matt, you and I don’t have any children yet, so.

Matthew Theal: No, no.

Joshua Winterswyk: I Have to look into that law to see if we’re going to take advantage of it, but Brent, how do you feel?

Brent Pasqua: I mean, I’m done having kids, so I’m looking at you two. It might be a little benefit for you guys.

Matthew Theal: Yeah. I was like, “Oh, finally a law that could benefit me.” All right. And then on the small business side, there was a lot of laws passed to essentially get you to adopt their retirement plan. Two of them being one. There’s now a tax credit for a small business that establishes as a retirement plan. Brent, you’ll have to make sure we get that tax credit this year.

Brent Pasqua: Yes.

Matthew Theal: And then finally, if you use auto enrollment in a retirement plan, there’s also a tax credit if you’re a small business owner for doing that as well. Like I said, there’s a lot of changes. If you do own a small business, reach out to your financial planner or give us a call because we would love to help you with these new rules and take advantage of them and pay less taxes and help your employees out on the 401k side. Like I said, tons of changes. We don’t have time to go over everything on today’s show, but we plan to at least do two or three more shows this year. One for retirees, the second one for small business owners, and the third one would probably be more general. And then maybe, Josh, do you think we could probably dive in deep to the stretch IRA? Do a whole show on that?

Joshua Winterswyk: I think so. I think there’s a lot to that, and I think giving even some examples through that show. So excited to do a stretch IRA is dead show by itself.

Matthew Theal: Me too. And then, Brent, I think you could probably do a show on your own about the annuities and 401k plans once we get some more clarity around that, right?

Brent Pasqua: Absolutely.

Matthew Theal: And we’re waiting for the products to actually be released and see them start showing up in the plan before we could really comment any further.

Brent Pasqua: Yeah. I think to this, this first next six to eight months, we’re going to be working with all of our clients on seeing how these changes apply to them specifically. And the changes they need to make in their plans. And any new clients that are coming in here will adopt their plan, adapt their plan, with the new rules and the new laws and make sure it’s all up to date with these big changes because these are pretty substantial.

Matthew Theal: Yeah, absolutely. They’re huge changes. Anything left today, Josh?

Joshua Winterswyk: No, just the last two bullet points were both around small business. So again, excited to be a small business episode of the SECURE act because I think these can help a lot of small business owners. Another opportunity for some planning.

Matthew Theal: Absolutely. Brent, anything else today?

Brent Pasqua: No, I was surprised to see this pass, but it’s fun to talk about.

Matthew Theal: It is. It’s good and it keeps our job fresh and fun and we can’t wait to help you plan in 2020 and beyond. Thank you for joining us today on the Retirement Plan Playbook. If you go to, you can download our e-book, you can check out the show notes, and you can also just leave us a message and reach out and tell us how you’re liking the show. Thank you for listening and have a great day.

Brent Pasqua: Happy new year.

Joshua Winterswyk: Happy new year.

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